Thanksgiving, God and the U.S. Constitution

[RyanL]

Thanksgiving is a religious holiday. It is in fact the first official U.S. holiday.

If anyone says the Constitution prohibits the U.S. government from acknowledging God, send them to this link:

http://ryanlarsen.blogspot.com/2009_10_01_archive.html

[Sophus]

Americans have done the same thing to Thanksgiving that the Romans did with Christianity. Thanksgiving today has just about nothing to do with 400 year old European festival it is comes from.

[RyanL]

wow you posted a response that has almost nothing to do with my argument.

Would you like to try again?

[Tom62]

Thanksgiving is a religious holiday. It is in fact the first official U.S. holiday.

I understood that Thanksgiving is a harvest festival. It could have had religious origins, but it is now primarily identified as a secular holiday. I think that is quite OK.

[Whitney]

wow you posted a response that has almost nothing to do with my argument.

Would you like to try again?

What argument?  You simply spammed the forum with a link to an article that doesn't cite quotation sources.

[Squid]

If anyone says the Constitution prohibits the U.S. government from acknowledging God, send them to this link.

Negative Ghostrider, the establishment clause has been interpreted as keeping the government from endorsing one religion over another.  You should really find better sources than some schmuck's blog.

[Recusant]

Hello, and welcome, RyanL.  

Thanksgiving, as celebrated in the US today is a secular holiday.  Its origins certainly were of a theistic nature, but only particularly religious people and families pay attention to the theistic aspect.  And in fact, Thanksgiving has its roots in a pagan celebration of the harvest that was thousands of years old before, like many pagan celebrations, it was Christianized.  So, if you want to try to emphasize a specifically Christian aspect to the holiday because of historic reasons, then I would say that others would be equally, if not more justified in emphasizing a pagan aspect.  Both are reasonable, but neither is necessary because, as I said, as currently celebrated in the US, it's a secular holiday which has religious overtones only for the religious.

In the blog post to which you link, the author (I'm guessing it's you) mentions Thomas Jefferson.  In fact, Thomas Jefferson refused to proclaim a day of thanksgiving specifically because he felt that it violated the "wall of separation."  He was a stickler on that particular subject, but as the blog post points out, later presidents weren't nearly as adamant about keeping a god or gods out of government.  There are many ways in which the establishment clause of the First Amendment is bent or circumvented in the US today, and I suppose you could cite Thanksgiving as one of them.  That does not mean that a strict interpretation of the First Amendment is invalid, only that in the past the government has chosen to interpret it rather freely.

Later in the blog post, the issue of taxing churches which try to get their religious doctrines passed as laws is brought up.  I think that's a very interesting subject, and I'm sure there are some members of this forum which have views quite contrary to that expressed in the blog, but a different thread than this would be the place to get into it.

I, for one, found your post stimulating, and I thank you RyanL, for that.

[RyanL]

Recusant,

Thank you for the polite, civil response.

Thanksgiving, as celebrated in the US today is a secular holiday.

People may take for granted or may not be aware of the religious nature of the holiday, but even if they outright intentionally refused to celebrate it or even if we abolished the holiday altogether, my point would still stand. The same session of Congress which drafted the first amendment set apart a day for giving Thanks to God. Therefore, the first amendment does not prohibit government acknowledgment of God.

The Supreme Court chose to defer to Thomas Jefferson as the authority on the establishment clause, because he wrote the law upon which the establishment clause was based. But as I point out, that very law acknowledges God and does so explicitly.

In other words, we only use "separation between Church and State" as a standard because of the validity of a law which acknowledges God.

if you want to try to emphasize a specifically Christian aspect to the holiday

I have no interest in doing that.

In the blog post to which you link, the author (I'm guessing it's you) mentions Thomas Jefferson. In fact, Thomas Jefferson refused to proclaim a day of thanksgiving specifically because he felt that it violated the "wall of separation."

I don't believe Jefferson ever cited the wall of separation as his reason. However, my blog does not claim that Jefferson proclaimed thanksgiving; my blog points out that Jefferson wrote acknowledgment of God into law - and not just any law for that matter, but the law upon which the establishment clause is based.  

He was a stickler on that particular subject, but as the blog post points out, later presidents weren't nearly as adamant about keeping a god or gods out of government.

Yes, but George Washington was the first president, not a later president. Even more relevant than the president is Congress, which drafted and voted on the establishment clause.  

Again, thank you for the civil and thoughtful response.

[Recusant]

I don't believe Jefferson ever cited the wall of separation as his reason.

For the record, the famous 1802 letter to the Danbury, Connecticut Baptist Association in which the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state" is used was written in the context of Jefferson's refusal to proclaim a national day of thanksgiving.

From an interview with Daniel Dreisbach, author of Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation Between Church and State:

...let's examine the context in which Jefferson wrote this letter. In the early days of his administration, he was being criticized for not appointing days for prayer and Thanksgiving. His Federalist critics had said this was evidence that Jefferson was in fact a political atheist and an infidel. Jefferson had refused to issue such proclamations, and he wrote that one of the reasons he wanted to write the letter was to explain to a wider constituency why he had declined to issue a Thanksgiving Day proclamation.

I recommend the interview, and though I haven't read the book, I'm sure it would be very interesting to you.  In the interview  it's possible you might find some things that back up your position, though in this particular instance, it does not.

I agree that one could construe a subtext of acknowledgement of god/theism in the First Amendment, but as you know, no god is mentioned at all in it.  So though such a subtext might be construed, it really has no basis from a straight reading of the text of the amendment. The fact that the law upon which the First Amendment is based does explicitly mention God is actually irrelevant.  I believe that courts should be concerned with upholding the law as written, not with trying to give historical interpretation of the law to back up some agenda.  Again; the First Amendment specifically excludes the involvement of the US government in religion.  Thanksgiving is quite properly a secular holiday, despite its theistic (pagan/Christian) roots.  You and other religious folks are welcome to celebrate it in whatever god-bothering way you like, but I'll thank you not to try to impose that viewpoint on the rest of us.  And on this coming last Thursday in November, I'll thank Thomas Jefferson and those who have come after him for their efforts to keep this country from becoming a theocracy.

[RyanL]

For the record, the famous 1802 letter to the Danbury, Connecticut Baptist Association in which the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state" is used was written in the context of Jefferson's refusal to proclaim a national day of thanksgiving.

I really appreciate your responses, but neither Jefferson nor the Baptists to which he was writing mentioned Thanksgiving in their correspondence. Historians may speculate as to Jefferson's motives, but even if Jefferson really did write at some later date that "one of" his reasons for writing to the Baptists related to Thanksgiving, I would need to see that exact quote from Jefferson and look at the context.

In any event, if we are to view Jefferson's letter to the Baptists as official correspondence on behalf of the government, we should note that he ends the letter with "kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man." So, using Jefferson's standard, government correspondence can include reference to God. If the President wants to, he can use government stationary and postage to send every American a Thanksgiving card expressing "kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man." Or, if we are to not view Jefferson's letter to the Baptists as official, then it has no place being used as the official standard for interpreting the establishment clause.

I agree that one could construe a subtext of acknowledgment of god/theism in the First Amendment, but as you know, no god is mentioned at all in it. So though such a subtext might be construed, it really has no basis from a straight reading of the text of the amendment.

Yes, but neither does a general "separation between church and state" have a basis from a straight reading of the text, whose purview only extends to prohibiting congress from making a specific type of law. In fact, it sounds like Jefferson was saying that the prohibition on Congress constitutes "a" wall, not a large wall or even an absolute wall, just "a" wall of separation between church and state. In other words, Jefferson was describing the prohibition on Congress rather than claiming that the prohibition extends beyond congress or demanding that Church and State be separated in other ways.

Moreover, the validity of "separation between church and state" as a description of the establishment clause relies on the validity of Jefferson's "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom"(the law which explicitly acknowledges God), as the basis for the establishment clause. This is because the only reason the Supreme Court cited Jefferson's "separation" statement as authoritative was because Jefferson had written what the Court acknowledged as the basis for the clause (the Virginia Statute). In other words, Jefferson's description of the establishment clause is only legitimate if the statute he wrote is the legitimate basis for the clause. Essentially, "separation between church and state" is seen as authoritative because of a law which acknowledges God. We cannot therefore say that "separation between church and state" prohibits government from acknowledging God.        

The fact that the law upon which the First Amendment is based does explicitly mention God is actually irrelevant.

It is relevant because it is an instance of the government acknowledging God and it is relevant because its legitimacy is the basis for the legitimacy of "separation between church and state," as explained above.

Again; the First Amendment specifically excludes the involvement of the US government in religion.

Only congress, only with respect to what laws congress can make, and only with respect to congress making laws respecting an establishment of religion. It does not say that congress, let alone any other branch or representative of government, cannot officially acknowledge God or make laws acknowledging God. God is not an "establishment of religion."

[Tanker]

Recusant,

Thank you for the polite, civil response.

Thanksgiving, as celebrated in the US today is a secular holiday.

People may take for granted or may not be aware of the religious nature of the holiday, but even if they outright intentionally refused to celebrate it or even if we abolished the holiday altogether, my point would still stand. The same session of Congress which drafted the first amendment set apart a day for giving Thanks to God. Therefore, the first amendment does not prohibit government acknowledgment of God.

Well I'm unsure of where you get your facts. While many presidents did celibrate a day of thanksgiving in their own homes (as is unrelated to government) it had no set date and was held on many different dates over the years. Thanksgiving DID NOT become a federal holiday untill 1863 under Lincoln's administration. So the Phrase "The same session of Congress which drafted the first amendment set apart a day for giving Thanks to God" is patently false and using it as a basis for claiming that the first amendment not preventing the acknowledgement of god makes that basis false as well.

[Whitney]

^This is why it is important to cite sources.  If you don't cite your sources no one knows where you are getting your information and if it conflicts with their previous research they are only left to assume you are either confused or lying.

[Renegnicat]

I'm pretty sure that Thanksgiving is a religious holiday, but that is not very accurate. It may be more accurate to say that thanksgiving was founded as a day to be grateful for what you have, what you have recieved, to "count your metaphorical blessings", so to speak. I think this is a very good practice, and that it doesn't neccessarily have to be restricted to one god or religion. In fact, to drag religious squabbling into it is really doing more damage to the holiday than helping it.

Heck, a god isn't even necessary to feel thankful for what you have. Also, keep in mind that a great feast on thanksgiving day is not necessarily feeling thankful. It might be more accurate to say that feeling thankful for your blessings and indulging in a gluttonous feast are two completely different things.

But mmmm... gotta love that turkey.  

[Whitney]

I'm pretty sure that Thanksgiving is a religious holiday, but that is not very accurate.

It actually depends on which origins of Thanksgivng you use, quick video on the origns: http://www.history.com/video.do?name=Th ... 1586348651

Thanksgiving, as practiced today in the US, is all about family getting together then celebrating gluttony and football with an afterthought of being thankful for each other.  In other words, it's just like almost all other American holidays.

[Tanker]

^This is why it is important to cite sources.  If you don't cite your sources no one knows where you are getting your information and if it conflicts with their previous research they are only left to assume you are either confused or lying.

You are absolutly right. However My souce is a show on Lincoln I saw a couple weeks ago on T.V. That makes sourcing difficult especialy since I don't remember the station. I could take the time to google but a) I simply don't care that much at this point and b) everyone else (namely the op) can do he same.